Welcome Readers from Portugal!
Post Updated, 10/9/13. See below!
Readers coming to my blog 
from The 
Atlantic article “The Mystery of Why Portugal Is So Doomed” saw my comment there directing you to my earlier post “A Tale of Two Maps.” Matthew O’Brien over at The Atlantic seemed to indicate the poor economic situation in Portugal was somehow mysterious. But the reality is that the explanation, ultimately, is far less mysterious he would have us believe. In a “A Tale of Two Maps”, I contrast the average IQ of the various European nations with their economic performance, gauged by the unemployment rate. We saw that there is a distinct correlation between average IQ and unemployment rates. It’s almost as if average IQ was driving economic performance. It turns out that that is the case.
See these from La Griffe du Lion for an explanation of the process:
The Smart Fraction Theory of IQ and the Wealth of Nations
Smart Fraction Theory II: Why Asians Lag
IQ is a key ingredient in achievement. It is high-IQ individuals who are your doctors, architects, engineers, scientists, mathematicians and other key people who make a modern advanced society work. As well, as La Griffe du Lion notes, people with above average IQs – the “smart fraction” – are also the valuable support people to those with very high IQs. These above average folks are the nurses, mechanics, electricians, and others that maintain an advanced society. Without a sufficient fraction of these high IQ individuals in your population to create wealth, your country’s economic development will be limited.
Low IQ is not a result of poverty; poverty is generally a result of low IQ, for the reasons described above. You can see that poverty isn’t a cause of low IQ by looking at poor but high-IQ countries:
As we can see, average IQ is high all across China, despite the fact that the interior sections of the country are highly impoverished, with many just now developing. And indeed, the horrendous poverty across many parts of China doesn’t stop them from being incredibly inventive, giving us stuff like these:
These were taken from another Atlantic article, “Chinese DIY Inventions”. Go there for the descriptions of this amazing stuff.
You don’t see stuff like this in say, Saudi Arabia (I’d imagine you don’t see a whole lot in Portugal, either). Indeed, contrast what we see in impoverished but inventive China with Saudi Arabia – a country with incredible wealth, thanks to its abundant oil reserves, and a high GDP “per capita” – but which performs poorly on scholastic tests. Despite its wealth, it has an average IQ of about 80. In Saudi Arabia, this is what you find:
You don’t see much of the ingenuity on display as you see China or most of the developed countries of the world.
Or indeed, look at the break down in average IQ across Europe from this map I drew:
This is the average IQ of the various European countries, with the Hajnal line overlain (see A Tale of Two Maps for my sources). To the east of that line (a line also known as The Iron Curtain), we see a distinct decline in average IQ from north to south. The northern ex-communist nations appear to be markedly brighter than the southern ones. Yet both regions were impoverished in the communist era.
EDIT, 10/9/13: Indeed a recent paper by Gregory B. Christainsen has examined issue of “reverse causation” – that national wealth causes average IQ levels as opposed to the reverse – and found little support for the notion. From the paper (emphasis mine):
The study emphasizes the possible role of conditions at or near the test-takers’ time of birth. The paper finds that the impact of living conditions is of much smaller magnitude than is suggested by just looking at correlations between average IQ scores and socioeconomic indicators. After controlling for test-takers’ region of ancestry, the impact of parasitic diseases on average IQ is found to be statistically insignificant when test results from the Caribbean are included in the analysis. As far as IQ and the wealth of nations are concerned, causality thus appears to run mostly from the former to the latter…
Switzerland was 50 times richer than China in terms of real purchasing power. The Chinese were also more poorly nourished and carried a heavier disease burden. In addition, the average number of years of schooling in Switzerland was more than twice as high as in China. Nevertheless, the Chinese registered slightly higher IQs….
…the unweighted mean of all the scores used from the Caribbean is 76, almost the same as the mean of the scores used from sub-Saharan Africa, despite the great difference in parasite prevalence in the two locations. Thus, with Caribbean scores included,the regression analysis regards parasite prevalence as an unimportant factor in the determination of average IQ. Test-takers’ region of ancestry again dominates the results. China has just as heavy a parasite burden as Dominica, but far higher average IQ. Generally speaking, elite Nigerians who do not have parasitic diseases and do not suffer from malnutrition simply do not have IQs that are close to those of elite Germans….
Kuwait’s per capita GDP was even higher than Switzerland’s. Its nutritional standards were clearly much better than China’s, and its disease burden was considerably lower. Yet, its average intelligence level appears to be much lower as well — 17 IQ points lower. In fact, it is not much different than the level for Pakistan, which has had far more miserable living conditions…
The results are clearest in cases where countries have very different living conditions than other countries in the same world region. China has had far worse living conditions than Japan or South Korea, but average IQ scores that are close to those of its neighbors. Taiwanese born in the early 1940s into poor conditions on the island of Taiwan or in Mainland China recorded an average IQ of 102…Kuwait and other oil kingdoms have had much better living conditions than other countries in the North Africa/South Asia region, but test results that are not appreciably different.
Endowed with great diamond wealth, Botswana has been touted as a positive example of economic development in sub-Saharan Africa. For young Botswanan adults born after 1985, average years of schooling exceed the mean for young adults in Turkey, and are only slightly below the average for similarly-aged British nationals…Yet, a reasonably representative sample of Botswanans, aged 17–20, all born in the late 1980s or early 1990s, received an average IQ score of just 71 on the Standard Progressive Matrices (SPM).
The average IQ of Portugal given by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen is 94.4. That’s high enough to make Portugal a modern advanced society (which appears to require a minimum average IQ of about 92), but not enough to allow it to compete with its northern neighbors like Germany or England (but don’t worry, these northern countries are rapidly working on fixing that problem). The currency union brought on by the EU and the generous loans and investments into Portugal, and the other PIIGS, predicated on the idea that their economies would eventually grow to match those of their “core” neighbors (to borrow HBD Chick’s term) turned out to be a disaster for everyone involved. The problems in your country follow from this. My suggestion would be finding a way to return to your pre-EU days when your citizens found a way to live within their means.
Now, believe me, I understand how disheartening this must be to hear, because my parents are from a country that has similar – but much more severe problems (see “About Me“). The average IQ of Jamaica appears to be only 80. While conditions there may improve somewhat, contrary to the more idealistic hopes of my younger self, Jamaica will never become on par with a country like the United States in terms of its development and standard of living. The “human capital” is simply not there. It’s hard to look at the poverty there and not want to think that one day, “their day will come”, especially knowing the poverty that the now developed nations once suffered. Unfortunately for Jamaica that will not be the case.
Despite the efforts of the EU to improve “education” in Portugal and the other PIIGS – much like our own efforts here in the U.S. – these will not largely improve the lot of the people there. It would make much more sense for the people of the EU to accept that the productivity of Portuguese will never be the same as the Germans or the English, and shape their policies accordingly. For the Northern Europeans to constantly wonder why their Southern neighbors can’t “just be more like us” and seem to “punish” Southerners for this is wrong and counterproductive.
For more, please see:
My page HBD Fundamentals for a succinct summary of the evidence behind heritable human differences
My 100th blog post, for a recap of the key points discussed on my blog: 100 Blog Posts – A Reflection on HBD Blogging And What Lies Ahead
More on Farming and Inheritance Systems – Part I: IQ
My About Me page.
And these posts by HBD Chick: start here and the middle ages
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Economists assume that all people are rational actors, all driven by the same drives and motivations. That we all want to work hard, get on in life, earn as much money as possible, be productive, do whatever it takes to be successful. Move hundreds of miles to start a new job, etc. The Atlantic article suggests that Portugal is ‘doomed’, and that the problem is that too much of its economy consists of ‘mom and pop stores’; and that: “businesses choose to stay small, because it makes sense to just deal with people you personally trust when you can’t reliably appeal to the authorities sans-kickback. Businesses can stay small, because the laws make it hard to get big and achieve economies-of-scale. It’s a mom-and-pop nightmare of low productivity.”
While you instead imply that the lower average iq in Portugal might be the cause of the low growth and productivity. The answer really, when one contrasts northern Europe with southern Europe, is that in the warm, sunny southern European countries a man doesn’t need to have a high iq or a strong burning desire to work hard and achieve wealth and success in order for him to mate with an attractive woman. So these traits have not been selected for so much. Rather it is attributes that signal genetic potential (rugged, masculine looks, and confidence/charisma) that have been more selected for. For example, on average, Dutch, German, British, or Scandinavian men are less able to use their looks, confidence, masculinity, or charisma alone to attract a quality mate [when compared to southern European men], so instead superior resource-provisioning ability, and long-term loyalty and commitment, both determined by their iq and conscientiousness level, were the qualities which traditionally led to reproductive success and were selected for. (And a country consisting more of men with these attributes should therefore experience higher average economic growth than those where it wasn’t selected for so much, ie southern European countries). I think this might be indirectly linked to MacArthur/Wilson’s r/K-selection theory in some way, or something similar. In addition, even if you have a high iq or strong desire to work hard, if it is too bloody hot all the time one simply does not feel like working, and would much rather go to the beach, grab a cold beer, and chat up the sexy women! In London, Zurich, or Frankfurt that isn’t possible! Economists can’t seem to figure any of this stuff out.
Precisely. Indeed, I’ve said much the same on my earlier post on the distribution of average IQ scores across Europe:
More on Farming and Inheritance Systems – Part I: IQ | JayMan’s Blog
In Southern Europe, it is warmer, the living is comparatively easier, so there was a weaker selection for IQ and work ethic as compared to Northern Europe.
Several commenters at that Atlantic article have noted that Portuguese may put in long hours at their jobs, but they don’t necessarily work. You find similar lax work ethic in all tropical/sub-tropical economies.
Hello, I am from Saudi. Tomorrow I go to government telling them to make policy for people with IQ >= 100, to do fucking and make 10 babies. Inshallah we make improve.
Hi, welcome to the blog. In your country, that might actually work! 😉
I’d target it a bit upwards though, at an IQ of ≥115 for maximal effect.
I am thinking of a program that will redistribute the excess children from these families to the poorer, sterilized one to recreate the Frost/Clark domestication that happened in europe and north east asia.
As the average IQ goes up, I wish to see islam replaced by a more civilized high culture, maybe something akin to assyrian and babylonian paganism with giant temples built, gaurded by silent lamassu.
Just in time, we have this from Greg Cochran.
The breeder’s equation | West Hunter
Don’t have too much fun over there…
We will have a lot of fun. We will do the breeding with fanatical ferocity, I will say that Allah gave me this commandment and everyone will believe. I will talk to some Americans to help collect IQ data and pick the breeders.
Jay, I already replied to your obnoxious posts on The Atlantic article dismantling step by step your ridiculous theories. Although there was no insults, apparently The Atlantic decided to not approve my posts. God knows why…
I really don’t want to waste more time with foolishness.
But I just wanted to give you an advice. Please, instead of wasting your time making a fool of yourself, do us all a favor, go back to Jamaica and use your 130 IQ to develop your own country. People there need much more your theories than anybody in the developed world.
I did see one of them. Because I’m a good sport, allow me to help you out.
You wrote:
My response is:
As I said, an average IQ of 94.4 – which is apparently Portugal’s average IQ – is high enough (given other conditions which I’ll discuss shortly) to support a modern advanced society – albeit one not quite at the level of the Northern European countries.
As well, a high average IQ is a necessary but not sufficient condition for an advanced society to exist. You still need other elements, such as industrialization, a market economy, etc. Obviously the differential in development of high average IQ China vs similarly intelligent Japan attests to this.
As for the supposed lack of development of the Finns, they seem to not be lacking in accomplished individuals (many before the 20th century).
And even further still, average IQ is far from the only factor dictating economic development, as seen from the residuals on my maps. But it is an important one.
“Troll” doesn’t mean anyone who says something you don’t like.
***
Feel free to continue the discussion here, just be respectful and be mindful of what is actually being said. 🙂
@Carlos Miranda – “Portugal has now a days one of the highest rates of PhD’s per 1000 inhabitants in Europe..”
Maybe so, but do PhD holders necessarily make good entrepreneurs? Do they create jobs? Germany, Japan, South Korea and Israel all have a relatively high number of PhDs per capita..but so do Iraq and Palestine too apparently. Having a higher number of PhDs per capita doesn’t automatically equate to a country having a good economy. A lot of people with PhDs are academics, government workers, or what I would consider ‘professional students’, eg 40 years old man with 3 bachelor degrees, 5 masters degrees, 2 PhDs, yet never married and still studying while working part-time in the local supermarket. And if all PhD holders move out of Portugal to come and work in the UK, USA, Canada, or even Brazil or Angola [which is my observation] then they will be of little use in helping to develop Portugal’s economy in the long-run. I think a lot of Portugal’s brightest and most ambitious or entrepreneurially-minded have left the country in droves over several generations now.
@chrisdavies09
The PhD per 1000 inhabitants number is what it is – just a number. As much as the IQ average number is – just a number.
The problem with these kind of social analysis based on numeric indicators are several:
1. The consistency of the indicators: the scientific methods used to map the results are quite arguable;
2. The IQ scale itself is quite controversial as a mean to measure the cognitive ability of a person since it just relies upon symbolic logic;
3. Reading indicators literally, without historical context, without cultural context, without understanding the dynamic of the indicators, and jumping to conclusions and theories in an extreme simplistic ways.
The main conclusion of this theory stating “Low IQ is not a result of poverty; poverty is generally a result of low IQ” is a completely wrong assumption. Neither low IQ is result of poverty, neither poverty is a result of low IQ. They are DYNAMIC. And certainly they cannot be taken out many other contexts.
So the all theory does not stand from top to bottom. If this had to be evaluated as an academic scientific study, believe me, it would never be accepted by any serious academic institution.
@Carlos Miranda:
While you’re welcome to post here, a key thing is being able to substantiate your claims with evidence upon request. I will ask this of you now.
Numbers are how we discern reality. This works because the universe is likely inherently mathematical; everything reduces to numbers. Numbers are important to evaluating the truth of scientific propositions.
Please details the errors in the methods used.
The ability to process symbolic logic…what does that sound like?
Far from this claim, if you observe the methods used by the many researchers who have noted the association with average IQ and economic vitality, you will see that take all these things into account. Their explanations were based on the facts they found. Please see here: HBD Fundamentals: On racial differences in IQ and their global impact
Please review the above evidence, then get back to me on that.
Hello, what you write is amazing. Can you share with us you IQ?
Thank you!
My IQ is significantly above average. My fiancée and I are in the same neighborhood (assortative mating and all)…
Above average is really too wide to understand what we are really talking about. Can you be more precise ?
But share some with us!!!
Since you write so many things about IQ, It is not fair that you don’t share this information in your profile.
“While conditions there may improve somewhat, contrary to the more idealistic hopes of my younger self, Jamaica will never become on par with a country like the United States in terms of its development and standard of living”:
Average Portuguese IQ is >100.
http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/greekiq/
Buj’s studies are unrepresentative of the countries he observed. You need to gather average IQ across the entire nation, not just in the capital…
Capital cities have people from across the entire nation and from all socioeconomic backgrounds. But you’re right that you need to gather IQs and not just make them up like Lynn does.
Make one more silly and blatantly untrue comment like that and you will be bannned.
Not silly and not untrue.
http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/devastating-criticism-of-richard-lynn.html
http://italianthro.blogspot.com/search/label/IQ
I’ve tangled with Italianthro before (also here). Let’s just say I’m much less forgiving in my comment policy now.
His claims about sub-Saharan Africa have been thoroughly addressed. See here.
As well, nitpicking a few things here and there, even if they were legitimate – which is questionable – still does not content with the mountain of evidence we have group-wide heritable differences in IQ and behavioral traits.
Please do not keep recycling Italianthro’s stuff here.
Additionally, this very post contains something that’s hard for Italianthro and the nonsense he peddles to explain, which was the point of it.
I see you losing two debates against Italianthro; I see Jason Malloy admitting that Lynn’s global IQ dataset was and still is full of errors; and I see a long page of endless links that have nothing to do with the fact that Lynn makes up IQ scores, which has been demonstrated by several researchers.
What you see is me having too much faith in unrestrained discussion.
That’s why other researchers have come to the same conclusions.
Look, the link between IQ, scholastic achievement, and economic development is robust. Finding a few problems, as tenuous as they are, in research on a topic inherently hard to research with perfect accuracy (average IQ in sub-Saharan Africa) hardly address all the other facts on the matter. It’s worth noting in the Lynn-Africa debate, the crux of the discussion rests on whether the sub-Saharan African average IQ is 70 vs. 80! It’s not like we’re talking Northern European levels in any case. People like Italianthro have a hard time explaining other facts, like the ones discussed in this post, and the ones you can find right here (HBD Fundamentals). When they can do that, then we can talk.
Yep, gotta be sure to “restrain” those discussions that don’t go your way. 😉
Rindermann says SSA IQ is 75, not 70 like Lynn. But that’s still lower than Wicherts’ 80. He also says with better health, nutrition and education, that score could rise 10-15 points within just one generation.
I’m sorry but there are no facts in your post. There’s only fictitious IQ scores that are up to 10 points lower than the true scores.
@da Silva:
Notice how, inevitably, when people try to criticize the well established links between race, IQ, and economic development, they settle on Lynn’s investigations of the average IQs in sub-Saharan Africa? Without fail.
To this, I have to say, have you seen sub-Saharan Africa? Can you not imagine the difficulty in getting reliable representative IQ scores there, much less any reliable representative metric?
This is to say nothing of that the fact that the situation there is so bad should be a testament to the low average IQ of the people. Critics like to point out that “it’s the poverty”, and “the malnutrition,” etc. But then this runs up against the problem of WHY does this horrendous poverty persist there in the first place?
In any case, on that, let me quote Jason Malloy on the topic:
The whole issue is a massive attempt to grasp at straws, precipitated by Italianthro and others. I’ll grant that the likely genetic potential average IQ of sub-Saharans is about 80, which seems to line up with the well-established Black American average IQ of 85 (with 5 points due to White admixture) It is lower in sub-Saharan Africa thanks to the adverse conditions there. If the best you’ve got is to point out that there’s variation measured IQ scores, something that exists and remains a challenge even in the First World, you fall in the same fruitless path that Ron Unz has on the matter. It doesn’t even begin to tackle the mass of other facts, like why do the average IQs of the world cluster by race? Why do the different racial group measure the same on IQ tests and perform accordingly the same scholastically, economically, and socially no matter where in the world you look? If “poverty” is the explanation, then why do poor Whites outscore wealthy Blacks? Why do impoverished rural Chinese do better than oil-rich Arabs?
This is a bankrupt argument, and I’ve had enough of it here. Do not post again on this topic here unless you have something truly significant to add (tread very carefully).
There’s plenty of reliable representative IQ scores from Africa, but the problem is Lynn ignored most of them. I don’t even care about Africa or IQ and race. I only mentioned it to show that Lynn’s data is inaccurate. Portuguese IQ is not 94. It’s over 100.
The best number we have for sub-Saharan African average IQ, based on the most reliable and representative studies we have is in the low 70s. This is from the studies included in Lynn’s analysis, by international achievement test scores, and from socioeconomic indicators.
According to L & V 2012, the score Lynn derived for Portugal is based on an average of two IQ scores, one was the Buj study from Lisbon and another study done in 1989 that found an average IQ of 88. L & V averaged these to get 94. But the IQ of 94 agrees perfectly with achievement scores such as from the PISA and from socioeconomic indicators across the country.
You can’t just base your average IQ based on the study you like. The reality of the situation is always what it is, not what you want it to be.
I’m putting you on moderation from now on. Please think before commenting if you want to continue commenting here.
@da Silva:
For your last comment, which I’ve deleted, you are banned.
Furthermore, I’m not ignoring your previous comment because I’m afraid to address it. I didn’t allow it because, while superficially, it may appear to be legitimate, in the broader context of what was discussed here, it is a pointless attempt to continue a broken argument. For your information, the issue test variability has already been explained to you, which you can more of here:
Evo and Proud: More on Race, IQ, and Wealth
The line of argument your are trying to pull is precisely the same one for which Peter Frost admonished Ron Unz. It’s important to note we are trying to get at the truth here. Dwelling on variation in data which is inherent to the process in attempt to invalidate everything doesn’t aid in that goal, nor will it continue to be tolerated here.
Not silly and not untrue.
http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/devastating-criticism-of-richard-lynn.html
@JayMan,
I really didn’t want to spend more time with this ridiculous debate but you pass all the limits of what is acceptable.
“Numbers are how we discern reality. This works because the universe is likely inherently mathematical; everything reduces to numbers. Numbers are important to evaluating the truth of scientific propositions.”
Don’t you dare preach me about numbers Jay. we don’t know what your area of study is, we don’t even know who you are because you don’t share anything with us, but not only all my academic background is about Math and numbers, I also work in Medical Statistic research at an academic institution. We are talking serious work recognized by all the international scientific community, REAL scientific material, if you know what that is. Not just a bunch of WordPress links where anybody can write the most crazy stuff, some funny videos, and some cute maps that have no scientific credibility whatsoever and even have little to do with the your claims. So, this to say I have a pretty good idea what numbers are for, and the context in how they should be used.
Probably your intentions are even honest and good, but your orientation is totally misguided. The only thing you are achieving with your ridiculous claims is throwing confusion to the debate about poverty, education and equal opportunities. You are also wasting the time of well informed people who read your foolishness and can’t allow you to pass without publicly clarifying things.
So if you really want to contribute to something try to not waste your time, and everybody’s else with foolishness public claims and dedicate yourself to more serious stuff.
As off now I am out of this debate.
Take care.
Carlos Miranda
That’s good for you! First of all, see here (Carl Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit).
Second of all, learn it. It’s an obvious tell of bullshitological argument when someone makes statements heavy on irrelevancies but light on actual points of argument.
Third of all, come back when you have something substantive to say about what’s discussed here.
BTW, Carlos Miranda, if you make another comment like that, it’ll be deleted and you will be banned.
Arabs for more than four centuries consistently matched byzantine empire.How can they do with their low iq.
That was a long time ago. Average IQs were likely different then. As well, average IQ is one of many factors that determines the strength of a civilization.
I doubt what you call Arabs even looked the same as they do today.
There are a lot of research hours here. A lot of data. A lot of material read and catalogued. Obviously you are passionate about the issues explored above.
What seems to be missing, from a scientific standpoint, is a definitive link between correlation and causation. Just because two data points, e.g., IQ and “economic situation”, occur simultaneously does not mean one causes the other.
Another concern is definition of terms. The above post uses “economic situation”, “economic advancement”, “development”, “standard of living”, “advanced society” interchangeably. Are these terms identical? And if so, what do they mean, exactly. This strikes me a bit like saying because the Dow is climbing, America is “doing well”. Narrowing the research thesis could make a huge difference. Define the terms of a question very specifically, and answer the question. The broader a thesis like the above gets, the mushier.
Obviously, the questions hit a lot of vital nerves – intelligence, success, worth, personal identity. Maybe the biggest benefit of postulating connections is getting people talking. We risk confirming our own thoughts, however, because ambiguous research can have many “right” answers.
@Anonymous:
Thanks for commenting. As you can see from the links at the end, the totality of the evidence does indicate a causal relationship running from IQ -> economic circumstances. This is merely once piece in a much larger pie.
It’s best understood that IQ is a key ingredient in success, necessary (generally) but not sufficient. This is true on the individual level and especially true on the national level.
According to Richard Lynn, the IQ of the Irish is 92…
Yet, the living standards of Ireland is better than China.
To note that Ireland and China do not have natural resources.
@Knox:
There’s more to a country’s living conditions than average IQ. Behavioral traits of the people make their contributions, as these manifest in politics and economics.
Correlation does not imply causation.
@Nunes:
Correlation does imply (or more accurately suggest) causation. It’s that correlation does not equal causation. Where there is a correlational relationship, there is usually a causal relationship, but it may not go in the suspected direction or may operate via a variable some point upstream (that is, if A is correlated with B, it could be that A causes B, that B causes A, or that both A and B are caused by C).
Investigation looking at additional evidence can help tease out the causal relationship.
Is this map from the same book you use to support Portugal having an IQ of 94?
So, do you also believe Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina have lower IQ’s than american blacks, and Montenegro the same?
I double checked your map, and it’s a bit different from the one here: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/an-hbd-summary-of-the-foundations-of-modern-civilization/
On this updated post, you say Albania has an IQ of 80.
So, do you also believe that?
What an asinine post. It doesn’t seem to occur to you that a big factor why you see those DIY inventions out of rural China (in spite of their poverty), or why these really might not be that remarkable might be how rural China’s population numbers are asbolutely massive, accounting for about half the country’s population. That’s over 600 million people- don’t you think that compared to Portugal’s population of 10 million and Saudi Arabia’s population of 28 million might count for something?
It also doesn’t seem to occur to you the reality of society in even the more developed regions, as China has long been a deeply corrupt, atomized society who’s name has been synonymous with intellectual property theft and poor quality, from toys to stolen technology at the highest levels of government. It simply goes beyond parody at times, from bridges literally made out of garbage to China copying entire towns and landmarks, which has extended to the phenomenon of ghost cities, which are known to artificially inflate China’s GDP. In face of how bad urban China is in these regards, am I to believe rural China is a hotbed of innovation and inventiveness?
And then there’s your IQ data- you’re relying on online IQ tests. Putting aside just how those are almost never reliable, the fact of them being online ones would be bound to skew the results towards internet and rural users, IE, people from higher SES. And of course, those scores follow in the vein of the HBD fixation on acting as if (or trying to prove) east asian national IQ scores are just as high (or close to it) as the scores of some of their diaspora populations, particularly asian-americans (things like how small that group is compared to their home countries doesn’t seem to ever be considered, or that chinese-americans are disproportionately from Taiwan and Hong Kong.) Nevermind how recent years have shown how rampant cheating is in China and other parts of east asia, such as Taiwan and South Korea, which have been known to heavily inflate test scores. I’m also curious about that Christainsen paper, claiming malnourished, diseased Chinese children scored higher than Swiss ones- were these really rural ones? It’s worth noting Jason Malloy over at HV has claimed to have found rural Chinese IQ scores in the 70’s and possibly even lower, along with how it’s seemed to have dawned on him that much of Lynn’s work is sloppy and unreliable (and dishonest), and that he is, for the most part, a charlatan (an apt descriptor for a man who, despite a career spanning decades, published a paper in 2012 on international penis sized on a hoax dataset, in “Personality and Individual Differences” no less.)
Never underestimate the HBD predilection for asiaphilia, though.
@Al-Quam:
Forget about the DIY stuff. That’s just icing on the cake. What is important are the IQ scores (including the PISA) scores. They speak for themselves in all the discussed countries.
I’d like to see some references for rural Chinese IQs being in the 70s.
“Forget about the DIY stuff. That’s just icing on the cake.”
I’d agree to “forget the DIY stuff”, but not that it’s “icing on the cake.” I repeat: over half a billion people. That is something like 5-10% of the world’s population. It’s difficult to emphasize how miniscule these DIY inventions are in face of that number.
“What is important are the IQ scores (including the PISA) scores.”
Some of your IQ scores are online ones (are those suddenly valid now?), which, as I said (though improperly worded) are bound to skew towards urban, higher SES samples.
“I’d like to see some references for rural Chinese IQs being in the 70s.”
“A long time ago I checked through his China references and almost none of them even contained IQ data! It was totally baffling. I have 100s of Chinese studies, many of them in Chinese. I would love to start working on the China post, but it would be a crazy amount of work, and I would probably need a good Chinese collaborator.
You are right, though. I have not carefully examined them, but many studies from rural China report IQ scores in the 90s, 80s and lower.”
Also, I forgot this one- apparently, almost none of Lynn’s Chinese references even contain IQ data.
But atleast there’s the PISA, which surely can’t be inflated by cheating and cramming.
@Al-Quam:
You know, I wrestled with approving your comment, because it falls under this category. However, you did add some interesting information, so I’ll let it stand.
Look the bottom line is that the totality of the evidence makes a clear statement. Would additional research help (like a thorough examination of IQ scores from interior China)? Yes. Are results occasionally messy from time to time? Yes. Does this matter in the big picture? In this instance, no.
How about we hold off discussion on this topic until we get perhaps Jason Malloy’s inquiry or something like it? (That isn’t a suggestion.)
South Portuguese students have lower PISA test scores than their center and northern counterparts
South Portugal has also more Northwest African admixture (and Sub-Saharan) than the North.
I think there’s a causation.
Do you have regional data? I’d love to see it.
I was wrong. There’s a Northern region “Interior Norte” (more rural), that performes more poorly than any Southern region. It’s only “Litoral Norte” (more urbanized) that perfomes better than Southern regions:
http://econpapers.repec.org/article/ptubdpart/b201216.htm
JaYman,
I come from Portugal and i agree with you in general. Beside the fact that the human capital is not there there is no selective pressure for it to be. Unlike in China or In Israel or in India , in Portugal , the fact that someone is very high achieving academically is almost a black mark (unfortunately I know very well what I am speaking about ). It is not uncommon to find someone on lead positions on Portuguese companies who were miserable academically. There is even a case of someone who managed to be elected prime minister. Why? No mistery. He’s what Portuguese most worship. The guy with low IQ but with very good social skills. Not uncommon at all. It is more important (from Portuguese standpoint ) to be very good socially than to be intelligent (a good scientist, engineer or doctor ). The point that Portuguese fail to see is that no advanced society is composed by intelectually limited people no matter how good they are socially. Or how good they are playing soccer, matter of factly. In my opinion Portugal continues (and will continue ) on Europe ‘s tail because of not only the lack of human capital but the complete lack of desire and interest in capitalising on the little that exists. Being an aspie (with above average IQ and nil social skills) needless to say that I did what I had to do. Pack my suit case and go to Northern Europe. Here my skills are recognised and what is interesting is that most of the well placed people i met in Portugal wouldn’t stand a chance here. Any big company would tell them “I don’t care about your social skills. You have miserable intellectual achievements and we don’t employ people like you “. And that is that. Hope for Portugal? Honestly I don’t see much. Finally I’d like to say that I do not agree much about the north south gradient the other reader from Portugal mentioned. I have no data to support so I’ll speak by my own experience. Some of the brightest people I met in Portugal were from south. But,again, that is my feeling/personal experience, I have no proof to produce to you.
Does this mean that no amount of positive eugenics will ever increase the IQs of black and Arab populations? Also, you bring up how Jamaica will never be as successful as the United States and other (north)western European countries. Considering what’s going on in the west today, that might not necessarily be a bad thing.
Eugenics can do the trick, given a long enough time frame. But no amount of “environmental” intervention will bring these countries up to First World levels by itself.
So what would bring them up to First world levels?
Eugenics, or some sort of genetic engineering, widely adopted and sustained for a long enough period of time.
“Jamaica will never become on par with a country like the United States in terms of its development and standard of living.”
This was not written so very long ago that a geneticist should have neglected to mention the importance of gene drives and viral gene-editing vectors to our future.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/11/new-zealand-predator-free-2050-rats-gene-drive-ruh-roh/546011/
https://www.cell.com/molecular-therapy-family/molecular-therapy/fulltext/S1525-0016(16)30962-5
https://academic.oup.com/database/article/doi/10.1093/database/bat063/341034
Not only will Jamaica’s day come, everyone’s day will come; desire alone means it will not be forever until someone adds one with two. And since life is as von Neumann thought, everyone’s day will be available for purchase to everyone at once, everywhere at once, in a form that will self-implement in but few generations among those who have access to it, starting with the rich, leaking outward via the intelligent poor, and ending, I conjecture, on North Sentinel Island.
The trouble with fatalism is that life tends to find a way. Intelligence is not some resource to be hoarded, it is our servant, and one no greater than its master.